Ukuphelisa ubukoloniyali bexesha elizayo - Udliwano-ndlebe kunye noProf Christoph Görg | S4F AT

unjingalwazi weyunivesithi uGqr. UChristoph Görg usebenza kwi-Institute for Social Ecology kwiYunivesithi yezeNdalo kunye neeSayensi zoBomi eVienna. Ungomnye wabahleli kunye nababhali abakhokelayo beNgxelo ekhethekileyo ye-APCC Ubume bobomi obulungele imozulu, kwaye ungumbhali wencwadi: ubudlelwane bentlalo kwindalo. UMartin Auer ovela ku °CELSIUS uthetha naye.

Enye yeenkcazo eziphambili zesahluko esithi "I-Ecology yeNtlalo neyezoPolitiko", unjingalwazi uGörg ongumbhali okhokelayo, uthi "iimfuno ezintsha zangaphambili (ezifana nokukhula kohlaza, ukuhamba kwe-e, uqoqosho olujikelezayo, ukusetyenziswa ngamandla kwe-biomass)" azikho. okwaneleyo ukuphila ubomi obunobuhlobo bemozulu. “Ubungxowankulu behlabathi busekelwe kwimetabolism yemizi-mveliso, exhomekeke kwifosili kwaye ngoko ke imithombo enesiphelo kwaye ngoko ayimeli indlela ezinzileyo yemveliso kunye nokuphila. Ukuzibekela umda koluntu ekusetyenzisweni kobutyebi kuyimfuneko. ”

Udliwano-ndlebe lunokuviwa IAlpine UKUKHANYA.

Yintoni i-"social ecology"?

UMartin Auer: Sifuna ukuthetha malunga nanamhlanje ezentlalo nezopolitiko ncokola. “I-ecology” ligama elisetyenziswa rhoqo kangangokuba awusazi nokuba lithetha ukuthini. Kukho izicoci ze-ikholoji, umbane oluhlaza, i-eco-villages ... Ngaba unokucacisa ngokufutshane ukuba luhlobo luni lwesayensi yendalo?

UChristoph Goerg: I-Ecology ngokusisiseko yinzululwazi yendalo, evela kwibhayoloji, ejongene nokuhlalisana kwezinto eziphilayo. Umzekelo, kunye namatyathanga okutya, ngubani onezingela, ngubani onokutya. Usebenzisa iindlela zenzululwazi ukuhlalutya intsebenziswano kunye noqhagamshelwano kwindalo.

Kwenzeka into ekhethekileyo kwi-ecology yentlalo. Izinto ezimbini zidityanisiwe apha ezizezesayensi ezimbini ezahluke ngokupheleleyo, ezizezi, intlalo, inzululwazi ngentlalontle, kunye nenzululwazi ngendalo njengenzululwazi yendalo. I-ecology yentlalo yinzululwazi yezifundo ezahlukeneyo. Ingcali yentlalontle ayisebenzi nje kuphela kunye nee-ecologists ngaxa lithile, kodwa kuzanywa ukujongana nemiba ngendlela edityanisiweyo ngokwenene, imiba efuna ngokwenene ukusebenzisana, ukuqonda okuqhelekileyo kwezifundo zomnye nomnye.

Ndiyingcali yentlalontle ngoqeqesho, ndisebenze kakhulu nenzululwazi yezopolitiko, kodwa ngoku apha kweli ziko ndisebenza kakhulu namahlakani enzululwazi. Oko kuthetha ukuba sifundisa kunye, siqeqesha abafundi bethu ngeendlela ezahlukeneyo. Ewe, akukho mntu wenza isayensi yendalo kwaye ke kufuneka bafunde i-sociology kwisiqingatha sonyaka, kodwa siyenza kunye, ekufundiseni ngokubambisana, kunye nenzululwazi yendalo kunye nenzululwazi yezentlalo.

Indalo kunye noluntu ziyasebenzisana

UMartin Auer: Kwaye awuboni indalo kunye noluntu njengemimandla emibini eyahlukeneyo, kodwa njengemimandla ehlala isebenzisana enye kwenye.

UChristoph Goerg: Ngokuchanekileyo. Sijongana nonxibelelwano, kunye nentsebenziswano phakathi kweendawo ezimbini. Ithisisi esisiseko kukuba awukwazi ukuqonda enye ngaphandle komnye. Asikwazi ukuqonda indalo ngaphandle koluntu, kuba namhlanje indalo iphenjelelwa ngokupheleleyo ngabantu. Akazange anyamalale, kodwa utshintshile, watshintshwa. Zonke i-ikhosistim yethu yimihlaba yenkcubeko eye yahlaziywa ngokusetyenziswa. Siyitshintshile imozulu yehlabathi kwaye sibe nefuthe kuphuhliso lwesijikelezi-langa. Akusekho nanye indalo engachukunyiswanga. Kwaye akukho luntu ngaphandle kwendalo. Oku kuhlala kulityalwa kwiinzululwazi zentlalo. Sixhomekeke ekuthatheni izinto ezivela kwindalo - amandla, ukutya, ukukhuselwa kwimozulu embi, kwingqele kunye nobushushu njalo njalo, ngoko sixhomekeke ekusebenzisaneni nendalo ngeendlela ezininzi.

i-metabolism yentlalo

UMartin Auer: Nali igama eliphambili: "i-social metabolism".

UChristoph Goerg: Kanye into endiyikhankanyileyo yi "social metabolism".

UMartin Auer: Ngoko njengesilwanyana okanye isityalo: yintoni engena, yintoni edliwayo, iguqulwa njani ibe amandla kunye nezicubu kunye nento ephumayo kwakhona ekupheleni - kwaye oku ngoku kudluliselwa kuluntu.

UChristoph Goerg: Ewe, siphinda sihlolisise oko bungakanani, into edliwayo kunye nendlela kunye nantoni na ephuma ekupheleni, oko kukuthi yintoni inkunkuma eseleyo. Sivavanya ukuhamba kwelaphu, kodwa umahluko kukuba uluntu lutshintshe isiseko salo kakhulu kwimbali. Ngoku sikwimetabolism yemizi-mveliso esekelwe kwi-fossil fuel. Amafutha efosili anesiseko samandla angenawo ezinye izinto, ngoko umzekelo i-biomass ayinayo i-entropy efanayo. Sisebenzise ithuba kwimetabolism kwimizi-mveliso -- ngokusetyenziswa kwamalahle, i-oyile, irhasi njalo njalo-ezinye iintlanga ebezingenalo ngaphambili, kwaye sidale ubutyebi obumangalisayo. Kubalulekile ukubona oko. Sidale ubutyebi bezinto eziphathekayo obumangalisayo. Ukuba sibuyela emva kwisizukulwana, kulula kakhulu ukuyiqonda. Kodwa sidale ingxaki enkulu ngayo - ngokuchanekileyo ngenzuzo esiyifumene kusetyenziso lwendalo - eyile ngxaki yemozulu kunye nengxaki yeentlobo ngeentlobo zezinto eziphilayo kunye nezinye iingxaki. Kwaye kufuneka ubone oku kumxholo, kunxibelelwano. Ke le yimveliso yolu setyenziso lwezibonelelo, kwaye kufuneka sithathele ingqalelo ukuxhomekeka koluntu kolu ncedo. Nantso ke ingxaki enkulu esijongene nayo namhlanje: Singayitshintsha njani inkqubo yemetabolism yamashishini. Eso sisitshixo kuthi.

Unikezelo olutsha lwangaphambili alwanelanga

UMartin Auer: Ngoku intshayelelo ithi - ngokuthe ngqo - ukuba izinto ezintsha eziveliswayo zangaphambili ezifana nokukhula kohlaza, ukuhamba kwe-e-mobility, uqoqosho olujikelezayo kunye nokusetyenziswa kwe-biomass ukuvelisa amandla akwanelanga ukudala izakhiwo ezilungele imozulu. Ungayithethelela njani loo nto?

UChristoph Goerg: Ngokusebenzisa amandla efosili, sidale ithuba lophuhliso loluntu esingenako ukuqhubeka kwinqanaba elifanayo. Hayi nangokusebenzisa i-biomass kunye nezinye itekhnoloji. Ukuza kuthi ga ngoku, nangona kunjalo, akukho bungqina bokuba sinokukwenza oku. Kufuneka solule isilingi kuba siyaqonda ukuba ukuba siyaqhubeka sisebenzisa amafutha efosili, siya kudala ingxaki yemozulu. Kwaye ukuba asifuni kuyisebenzisa, thina njengoluntu kufuneka siqwalasele ukuba kungakanani ukuphumelela esinokukufumana kwixesha elizayo? Esikwenzayo ngoku: Sibeka ikamva. Namhlanje sisebenzisa eyona mpucuko inokwenzeka ngeendleko zezizukulwana ezizayo. Ndiyibiza loo koloniyali. Ngamanye amazwi, amathuba abo ancitshiswe kakhulu kuba namhlanje siphila ngaphaya kwamandla ethu. Kwaye kufuneka sehle apho. Le yeyona ngxaki iphambili ejongwe yithisisi yeAnthropocene. Ayibizwa ngolo hlobo. I-Anthropocene ithi ewe, sineminyaka yomntu namhlanje, ixesha le-geological eliye labunjwa ngabantu. Ewe, oko kuthetha ukuba kwiinkulungwane ezizayo, amawakawaka, siya kubandezeleka ngenxa yomthwalo wamaphakade esiwuvelisayo namhlanje. Ngoko hayi thina, kodwa izizukulwana ezizayo. Sinciphisa ukhetho lwabo kakhulu. Yiyo loo nto kufuneka sibuyisele umva ubukoloniyali bethu bexesha, ubukoloniyali bethu bekamva. Lo ngowona mceli mngeni ungundoqo wengxaki yemozulu yangoku. Oku ngoku kudlulela ngaphaya kweNgxelo yethu eKhethekileyo - ndingathanda ukugxininisa oku - olu luluvo lwam njengonjingalwazi wentlalontle. Awuyi kufumanisa ukuba kwingxelo, akusiyo imbono elungelelanisiweyo, sisigqibo endisenzayo kwingxelo njengososayensi.

UMartin Auer: Ngengxelo, asinayo incwadi yeresiphi yendlela ekufuneka siyilwe ngayo izakhiwo, sisishwankathelo seembono ezahlukeneyo.

Asinakuphila ngokuzinzileyo njengabantu ngabanye

UChristoph Goerg: Le yingongoma ebaluleke kakhulu: Sagqiba ngokucacileyo ukuba sishiye iimbono ezahlukeneyo njengoko zinjalo. Sinemibono emine: imbono yemarike, imbono entsha, imbono yokusasazwa kunye nembono yoluntu. Kwingxoxo malunga nokutshintsha kwemozulu, kuphela imbono yemarike isoloko ithathwa, oko kukuthi, sinokutshintsha njani izigqibo zabathengi ngokusebenzisa iimpawu zexabiso. Kulapho ingxelo yethu isitsho khona ngokucacileyo: Ngolu mbono, abantu ngabanye boyisiwe. Asinakuphila ngokuzinzileyo njengabantu ngabanye, okanye kuphela ngomzamo omkhulu, ngokuncama okukhulu. Kwaye injongo yethu ngokwenene kukuba kufuneka sifikelele kwizigqibo zomthengi zomntu ngokwale mbono. Kufuneka sijonge kwizakhiwo. Yiyo loo nto songeze ezinye iimbono, ezinje ngembono yenguqulelo. Kukho rhoqo. Kumalunga nophuhliso lobuchwephesha obutsha, kodwa nabo kufuneka baxhaswe yimiqathango yesakhelo, oko akwenzeki ngokwalo, njengoko kusenziwa ngamanye amaxesha. Iinguqulelo ezintsha nazo kufuneka ziyilwe. Kodwa kuya kufuneka ujonge ngaphaya kwetekhnoloji yomntu ngamnye, kufuneka ubandakanye umxholo wosetyenziso lwetekhnoloji. Kudla ngokuthiwa ukuba awufuni kuthetha ngetekhnoloji, kufuneka uvale umlomo wakho. Hayi, kufuneka sithethe ngeteknoloji, kodwa malunga nokusetyenziswa kobuchwephesha kunye nemiphumo emibi yeteknoloji. Ukuba sikholelwa ukuba imoto yombane iya kusombulula ingxaki kwicandelo lezothutho, ngoko sisendleleni engalunganga. Ingxaki yezothutho inkulu kakhulu, kukho ukusasazeka kwedolophu, kukho ukuveliswa kweemoto zombane kunye nezinye izinto kwaye ngokuqinisekileyo ukusetyenziswa kombane. Kufuneka ukubone oko kumxholo. Kwaye loo nto ayihoywa kwimiba nganye yokusungula izinto ezintsha. Yiyo loo nto siye sagqiba ekubeni sizalisekise imbono yemarike kunye nembono yokuvelisa izinto ezintsha kunye nembono yonikezelo, umzekelo ukuhanjiswa kwezithuthi zikawonke-wonke, okanye ukuhanjiswa kwezakhiwo ezenza ukuba ngokwenene kuphile ubomi obuvumelana nemozulu. Ukuba oku akubonelelwanga, ngoko ke asinakuphila ngendlela enobuhlobo kwimozulu. Kwaye ekugqibeleni imbono yentlalo, ezi zezi ntsebenziswano phakathi koluntu kunye nendalo.

Ngaba ubungxowankulu bunokugcinwa?

UMartin Auer: Ngoku, nangona kunjalo, esi sahluko sithi - kwakhona ngokucacileyo - ukuba i-capitalism yehlabathi ayimeli indlela ezinzileyo yemveliso kunye nokuphila kuba ixhomekeke kwi-fossil, oko kukuthi, i-finite, izibonelelo. Ngaba i-capitalism esekelwe kumandla avuselelekayo kunye noqoqosho olujikelezayo alunakucingelwa konke konke? Sithetha ntoni nge-capitalism, ibonakalisa ntoni? Imveliso yeemveliso, uqoqosho lwemarike, ukhuphiswano, ukuqokelelwa kwemali eyinkunzi, amandla abasebenzi njengempahla yorhwebo?

UChristoph Goerg: Ngaphezu kwako konke, ukuveliswa kwenkunzi enkulu ngokusetyenziswa kwenkunzi. Oko kuthetha ukwenza inzuzo. Kwaye uphinde utyale inzuzo, uyisebenzise, ​​kunye nokukhula okusisiphumo.

UMartin Auer: Ngoko awuvelisi ikakhulu ukwanelisa iimfuno ezithile, kodwa ukuthengisa kwaye ujike inzuzo ibe yinkunzi.

UChristoph Goerg: Ngokuchanekileyo. Eyona njongo kukuthengisa ukwenza inzuzo kwaye uphinde uyityale, ukwenza imali eninzi. Yinjongo leyo, hayi inzuzo. Kwaye loo nto iya kuba ngumbuzo omkhulu: Kufuneka sifike kumbono wokwanela, kwaye ukwanela kuthetha ngokusisiseko: Yintoni ngokwenene esiyidingayo? Kwaye sisenokwenza ntoni kwixa elizayo xa sijonga imeko yemozulu embi naxa sijonga izizukulwana ezizayo? Lo ngumbuzo ongundoqo. Kwaye ukuba oko kunokwenzeka phantsi kongxowankulu ngumbuzo wesibini. Kufuneka uyibone loo nto. Kodwa nakweyiphi na imeko, kufuneka - kufuneka siphume kolu lawulo lokwenza inzuzo ngenxa yenzuzo. Yiyo loo nto kufuneka siphume kwimbono yokukhula. Kukho oogxa bakholelwa ukuba le ngxaki yemozulu inokupheliswa ngokukhula. Oogxa bam baye baphanda oku kwaye baye bajonga onke amaphepha akhoyo kulo mbandela kwaye bajonge ukubona ukuba kukho nabuphi na ubungqina bokuba singakwazi ukuphelisa impumelelo yethu yezinto eziphathekayo ekusebenziseni izixhobo kunye neempembelelo zemozulu. Kwaye akukho bungqina besayensi kuloo nto. Kwaye ukudibanisa ngokwenene. Kwakukho izigaba, kodwa yayizizigaba zokudodobala koqoqosho, oko kukuthi ukudodobala kwezoqoqosho. Kwaye kwakukho ukwahlukana phakathi, ngoko ke sasinobutyebi obungakumbi bezinto eziphathekayo kuneziphumo ebezingalindelekanga. Kodwa kufuneka sisondele kwinkolelo yokukhula kunye nokunyanzeliswa ukukhula. Kufuneka sibheke kuqoqosho olungasakholelwayo kuhlumo olungenasiphelo.

Ngaba Ukukhula Ngumba Wokholo?

UMartin Auer: Kodwa ngaba ukukhula ngoku kungumbuzo nje weengcamango, wenkolelo, okanye ngaba yakhelwe kwinkqubo yethu yezoqoqosho?

UChristoph Goerg: Zizo zombini. Yakhelwe kwinkqubo yethu yezoqoqosho. Nangona kunjalo, inokutshintshwa. Inkqubo yezoqoqosho iyatshintsha. Sinako ukoyisa imiqobo yolwakhiwo. Kulapho ke inkolelo ingena khona. Kungoku nje, ukuba uyalaqaza kwiqonga lezopolitiko, awuzukufumana nelinye iqela elingenela unyulo olungagxili kuhlumo loqoqosho. Wonke umntu ukholelwa ekubeni ukukhula koqoqosho kusisisombululo kuzo zonke iingxaki zethu, ingakumbi iingxaki zethu zentlalo nezoqoqosho. Kwaye ukwenza oko, kufuneka sivule indawo ukuze sikwazi ukujongana nesisombululo ngaphandle kwembono yokukhula. Oogxa bethu bakubiza oku ukuhla. Asisakholelwa, njengokuba kwakunjalo ngeminyaka yee-70 no-80, ukuba zonke iingxaki zethu ziya kuconjululwa kukukhula koqoqosho. Kufuneka sifumane ezinye izisombululo, isisombululo soyilo esizama ukutshintsha izakhiwo.

Ukuzibekela umda ekuhlaleni

UMartin Auer: "Ukuzibekela umda koluntu" ligama eliphambili apha. Kodwa inokwenzeka njani le nto? Ngemiyalelo evela phezulu okanye ngeenkqubo zedemokhrasi?

UChristoph Goerg: Inokwenziwa kuphela ngedemokhrasi. Kufuneka inyanzeliswe ngumbutho woluntu wedemokhrasi, emva koko iya kuxhaswa ngurhulumente. Kodwa akufuneki ize njengomyalelo ovela phezulu. Ngubani ofanele ukuba negunya lokwenza oku, ngubani ekufuneka atsho kanye ukuba yintoni na esenokwenzeka kwaye yintoni engasenakwenzeka? Oko kunokwenziwa kuphela kwinkqubo yokuvota yedemokhrasi, kwaye oko kufuna uhlobo olwahlukileyo lophando lwezenzululwazi. Nkqu nenzululwazi akufunekanga iwise umthetho, kwaye ayinakuyalela. Yiyo loo nto siye songezelela iNgxelo yethu eKhethekileyo ngenkqubo yabachaphazelekayo ebandakanya abachaphazelekayo abasuka kwiindawo ezahlukeneyo zoluntu: Ngokwale mbono, lunokuthini uluntu oluvumela ubomi obulungileyo noluvumelana nemozulu lubukeke? Kwaye asizange sibuze nje izazinzulu, kodwa abameli bamaqela anomdla ahlukeneyo. Lowo ngumsebenzi wedemokhrasi. Inokuxhaswa yinzululwazi, kodwa kufuneka ichazwe kwindawo yoluntu.

UMartin Auer: Ukuba unokucutha oko ngoku, unokuthi: Ezi zizinto eziyimfuneko ngokwenene, ezi zizinto ezintle xa unazo, kwaye obo bunewunewu esingenakufikelela kubo. Ngaba unokuchasa oko?

UChristoph Goerg: Asinakuphikisa ngokupheleleyo oku. Kodwa ngokuqinisekileyo sinokuqokelela ubungqina. Ngokomzekelo, imiba yokungalingani kwezoqoqosho ineempembelelo ezinkulu ekukhutshweni kweegesi zegreenhouse. Lo ngowona mba mkhulu wokuba unemali eninzi. Imali eninzi inxulunyaniswa nokusetyenziswa kobunewunewu. Kwaye ngokwenene kukho iindawo onokuthi uziyeke ngaphandle kokuncama. Ngaba ngenene kufuneka ubhabhe uye eParis uyokuthenga ngempelaveki? Ngaba kufuneka ubhabhe iikhilomitha ezingaka ngonyaka? Ngokomzekelo, ndihlala eBonn kwaye ndisebenza eVienna. Ndayeka ukubhabha phofu. Ndiqaphele ukuba ukhawuleza eVienna okanye eBonn, kodwa ngokwenene ucinezelekile. Ukuba ndihamba ngololiwe, kungcono kum. Andihambi ngaphandle ukuba andibhabheli apho. Ndiyitshintshile ibhajethi yam yexesha. Ndisebenza kwi train ndifike ndizipholele e Vienna or ekhaya, andinastress sokubhabha, andihlali xesha lide egatin njalo njalo. Oku kuyinzuzo kumgangatho wobomi.

UMartin Auer: Oko kukuthi, umntu unokuchonga iimfuno ezinokwaneliswa ngeendlela ezahlukeneyo, ngeempahla okanye iinkonzo ezahlukeneyo.

UChristoph Goerg: Ngokuchanekileyo. Kwaye sizamile ukujongana naloo nto kwinkqubo yabachaphazelekayo. Sazazisa kwiintlobo ezinje, iindidi zasemaphandleni okanye abantu abahlala esixekweni, saza sabuza: Bungatshintsha njani ubomi babo, bunokuba bubomi obulungileyo njani obo, kodwa bunongcoliseko oluncinane lwemozulu. Kwaye kufuneka usebenzise intwana yentelekelelo. Oku kukwaxhomekeke kakhulu kubume beemeko zokusebenza, kwaye ngokunjalo nakwisakhiwo sebhajethi yexesha lokuzonwabisa. Kwaye nomsebenzi wokhathalelo onalo nabantwana kunye nokunye, oko kukuthi, bakhiwe njani, loluphi uxinzelelo onalo ngalo, nokuba kufuneka uhambe ubuyela umva kakhulu, unokhetho olukhululekileyo noluguquguqukayo lwemozulu ephilayo. -friendly. Ukuba uneemeko zoxinzelelo emsebenzini, ke usebenzisa i-CO2 ngaphezulu, ukuyibeka ngokulula. Ngoko ngokwenene siyenza ngohlahlo lwabiwo-mali lwexesha. Kuyavuyisa kakhulu ukubona ukuba izakhiwo zokusetyenziswa kwexesha zidlala indima enkulu kwi-CO2 yethu ekhutshwayo.

UMartin Auer: Ungatsho ke ukuba ukuncitshiswa ngokubanzi kweeyure zokusebenza kungenza kube lula ebantwini?

UChristoph Goerg: Nangeyiphi ndlela! Ukuba bhetyebhetye ngakumbi kuya kwenza kube lula kubo. Akunyanzelekanga ukuba use abantwana bakho ngemoto esikolweni, unokukhwela ibhayisekile ecaleni kwayo kuba unexesha elininzi. Ewe kunjalo, ukuba usebenzisa ukuguquguquka ukuya ekhefini ngakumbi, oko kubuyela umva. Kodwa siqinisekile - kwaye sibona ubungqina boku - ukuba uhlahlo lwabiwo-mali lwe-CO2 lunokwehliswa kwakhona ngokuguquguquka okukhulu.

yimalini eyaneleyo

UMartin Auer: Unokwenza njani ukwanela, okanye imfuno yokwanela, ibe yekholeleke kangangokuba abantu bangoyiki?

UChristoph Goerg: Awufuni kuthabatha nantoni na kubo. Kufuneka uphile ubomi obulungileyo. Yiyo loo nto ndigxininisa ukuba impumelelo, ubomi obulungileyo, ngokuqinisekileyo kufuneka ibe yinto. Kodwa ndidinga ntoni ukuze ndiphile ubomi obulungileyo? Ngaba ndifuna i-e-mobile egaraji ukongeza kwiinjini zam ezimbini zepetroli? Ngaba oko kuyandinceda? Ngaba ngokwenene ndiyazuza koku, okanye ndinento yokudlala nje? Okanye ludumo kum? Ukusetyenziswa okuninzi kukuwonga. Ndifuna ukubonisa ukuba ndinokuthenga uhambo lwangempelaveki ukuya eLondon. Olu dumo akulula ukuluncama, kodwa kusenokubakho intetho yesidlangalala ethetha ngalo: Ziziphi izinto endizifuna ngokwenene ukuze ndiphile ubomi obulungileyo? Kwaye sabuza amaqabane ethu asebenzayo lo mbuzo. Hayi indlela esifanele siqinise ngayo amabhanti ethu, kodwa yintoni esiyidinga ngokwenene kubomi obulungileyo. Kwaye ngenxa yoko sifuna ukhuseleko lwentlalo ngakumbi kunye nokuguquguquka.

UMartin Auer: Ngoku kwakhona ithi ukuguqulwa kwizakhiwo ezinobungane bemozulu kuhambelana neengxabano ezinzulu zomdla kunye nentsingiselo, kwaye kufuneka kube ngumsebenzi we-ecology yezopolitiko ukuqonda ezi ngxabano kunye nokubonisa iindlela zokuzoyisa.

UChristoph Goerg: Ewe, kanye. Kukwakho negama lesibini, i-ecology yezopolitiko. Inxulumene ngokusondeleyo kwi-ecology yentlalo. Kwaye kukho izikolo ezahlukeneyo, kodwa ngokomgaqo zonke izikolo ziyavuma ukuba oku kubandakanya ungquzulwano kuba siphila kuluntu apho iimfuno ziphikisana kakhulu. Umzekelo, kukho imisebenzi exhomekeke kwicandelo leemoto. Kuya kufuneka uyithathele ingqalelo loo nto, ngokuqinisekileyo abantu akufuneki balahlwe phandle ezitratweni. Kufuneka uphuhlise izicwangciso zenguqu. Sisuka njani kuqoqosho lwemoto ukuya kuleyo engasenayo loo mqobo. Ungayiguqula loo nto. Kukho neeprojekthi apho amandla amaninzi engqondo afakwe kumbuzo wendlela yokufezekisa ukuguqulwa. Kwaye kwi-ecology yezopolitiko iiprojekthi zoguqulo ezinjalo zinokuyilwa.

Ukuba sibheka eJamani: Kunokwenzeka, umzekelo, ukwenza ngaphandle kwe-lignite. Kwakukho abambalwa ababesebenza kwi-lignite, kwaye emva ko-1989 abazange bakhathazeke kukuba i-lignite yawa ngokuyinxenye. Imekobume yayimbi, yayingcolise kangangokuba, nangona baphulukana nemisebenzi yabo, bathi: ubomi bungcono nje. Into efanayo inokufezekiswa kwenye indawo ukuba unokunika abantu ikamva elifanelekileyo. Ewe kufuneka ubanikeze iimbono, kwaye kufuneka baziphuhlise kunye. Lo ngumsebenzi ongenakwenziwa ngokwawo.

Yintoni umsebenzi oluncedo eluntwini?

UMartin Auer: Bendijonge nje kumzekelo wembali, i Isicwangciso sikaLucas. Abasebenzi, abasebenzi kwiholo yefektri, baphuhlise ezinye iindlela kunye nabayili kwaye, ukuze kuthintelwe ukugxothwa, bafuna "ilungelo lomsebenzi oluncedo ekuhlaleni".

UChristoph Goerg: Lo ngumzekelo omhle kakhulu. Eli yayilishishini lezixhobo, kwaye abasebenzi babuza: ngaba kufuneka senze izixhobo? Okanye kufuneka senze izinto eziluncedo ekuhlaleni. Kwaye bazilungiselela ngokwabo. Esi yayisisicwangciso soguqulo, ukusuka kumzi-mveliso wezixhobo ukuya kumzi-mveliso ongezizo izixhobo. Kwaye abaninzi baye bazama ukufunda kuyo. Unokuthatha oku namhlanje, umzekelo, ukuguqula imboni yemoto, oko kukuthi ukuyiguqulela kwelinye imboni. Kufuneka iyilwe, ayifanelanga ukuba lunyango lokothusa, iinkampani mazingatshoni. Kufuneka uyenze ngendlela ethatha uloyiko lwentlalo ngokungqongqo kwaye ujongane nabo ngokuthintela. Senze iiprojekthi apha nemibutho yabasebenzi. Iimanyano zabasebenzi kwishishini lokubonelela ngeemoto e-Austria zingaziswa njani njengabadlali benguqu? Ukuze bangabi ngabachasi kodwa ngabaxhasi benguqu ukuba yenziwa ngendlela yobulungisa ekuhlaleni.

UMartin Auer: Abantu bakwaLucas babonisa ukuba: Singabantu abenza izinto. Aba bantu eneneni banamandla okuthi: Asifuni kuyenza loo nto. Abantu abakwivenkile enkulu banokuba namandla athi: Asibeki naziphi na iimveliso ezineoli yesundu ezishelufini, asikwenzi oko. Noma:Asizakhi iiSUV, asiyenzi lonto.

UChristoph Goerg: Wenza isinyanzelo soguquko sokuba abasebenzi bathethe ngakumbi, kungekuphela nje malunga neeyure zokusebenza kodwa nangeemveliso. Lo ngumbuzo osematheni ngokupheleleyo, ngakumbi kwicandelo lenkonzo namhlanje - makhe ndikhankanye iCorona - yokuba abaqeshwa kuqoqosho lwenkathalo banamathuba amaninzi okusebenzisana kwindawo yabo. Sifunde ukuba luthetha ntoni na uxinezeleko lobhubhani wecorona kubasebenzi. Kwaye ukudala amathuba okuba bancede ukubumba indawo yabo yokusebenza yimfuno yeyure.

Ukubuza amandla kunye nokulawula

UMartin Auer: Oku kusizisa esiphelweni sesi sahluko, esithi imibutho yentlalo enengxaki yamandla ekhoyo kunye nezakhiwo ezilawulayo zenza ukuba izakhiwo ezihambelana nemozulu zibe lula.

UChristoph Goerg: Ewe, ngokwenene yithisisi ecacileyo. Kodwa ndiqinisekile ukuba uchanekile ngokupheleleyo. Ndiqinisekile ukuba iingxaki ezikhoyo kunye neengxaki ezisemva kwazo zinento yokwenza nokulawula. Abanye abadlali, umzekelo abo balawula amafutha efosili, banamandla okwakhiwa kwaye ngoko balawula amacandelo athile, kwaye la mandla kufuneka aphulwe. Ngokukodwa kwindawo apho igama elithi "abanqolobi bemozulu" linengqiqo ngokwenene, oko kukuthi kwimeko yeenkampani ezinkulu zamandla efosili, oko kukuthi i-Exxon Mobile njl. kwaye bazama ukuthintela ulwazi malunga nengxaki yemozulu kwaye ngoku bazama ukwenza ishishini nayo. Kwaye obu budlelwane bamandla kufuneka buphulwe. Awuyi kukwazi ukuzisusa ngokupheleleyo, kodwa kufuneka ufezekise ukuba amathuba okubumba uluntu avuleleke ngakumbi. Bakwazile ukuqinisekisa ukuba igama elithi “amandla efosili” aliqukwanga nakwesiphi na izivumelwano kwiNgqungquthela yeNkqubo-sikhokelo yoTshintsho lweMozulu. Oyena nobangela awukhankanywanga. Kwaye loo nto ngumcimbi wamandla, wolawulo. Kwaye kufuneka siyiqhawule loo nto. Kufuneka sithethe ngezizathu kwaye kufuneka sibuze ngaphandle kokuvinjelwa kokucinga, sinokuyiguqula njani.

UMartin Auer: Ndicinga ukuba singayishiya njengelizwi lokugqibela ngoku. Enkosi kakhulu ngolu dliwano-ndlebe!

Ifoto yeqweqwe: Jharia Coal Mine India. Ifoto: TripodStories ngokusebenzisa Wikipedia, CC BY-SA 4.0