Qeda ukuqoqwa kwekusasa - Ingxoxo noProf. Christoph Görg | I-S4F AT

uprofesa wenyuvesi uDkt. UChristoph Görg usebenza e-Institute for Social Ecology e-University of Natural Resources and Life Sciences eVienna. Ungomunye wabahleli nababhali abaholayo bombiko okhethekile we-APCC Izakhiwo zempilo evumelana nesimo sezulu, futhi ungumbhali wencwadi: ubudlelwano bomphakathi nemvelo. U-Martin Auer ovela ku-°CELSIUS ukhuluma naye.

Esinye sezitatimende eziwumongo zesahluko esithi "Social and Political Ecology", uProfessor Görg angumbhali oholayo, sithi "izidingo ezintsha zangaphambilini (njengokukhula okuluhlaza, ukuhamba kwe-e, umnotho oyindilinga, ukusetshenziswa ngamandla kwe-biomass)" akwanele ukuphila impilo evumelana nesimo sezulu ukwenza kwenzeke. “Ubungxiwankulu bomhlaba wonke busekelwe kumetabolism yezimboni, encike emithonjeni yamathambo futhi ngenxa yalokho izinsiza ezinomkhawulo ngakho-ke ayimele indlela eqhubekayo yokukhiqiza nokuphila. Ukuzibekela umkhawulo komphakathi wokusebenzisa izinsiza kuyadingeka. ”

Inhlolokhono ingazwakala kuyo I-Alpine GLOW.

Kuyini "i-social ecology"?

UMartin Auer: Sifuna ukukhuluma namuhla imvelo yezenhlalo nezepolitiki xoxa. Igama elithi “Ecology” yigama elisetshenziswa kaningi kangangokuthi awube usazi ukuthi lisho ukuthini. Kukhona okokuhlanza imvelo, ugesi oluhlaza, i-eco-villages... Ungakwazi yini ukuchaza kafushane ukuthi hlobo luni lwesayensi ye-ecology empeleni?

UChristoph Goerg: I-ecology ngokuyisisekelo isayensi yemvelo, evela kubhayoloji, ekhuluma ngokuhlalisana kwezinto eziphilayo. Isibonelo, ngamaketanga okudla, ubani onezilwane ezidla ezinye, ubani onokudla. Usebenzisa izindlela zesayensi ukuhlaziya ukusebenzisana nokuxhumana emvelweni.

Kwenzeke okuthile okukhethekile ku-social ecology. Izinto ezimbili zihlanganisiwe lapha empeleni ezingeziwomkhakha wesayensi ohluke ngokuphelele, okungukuthi isayensi yezenhlalo, isayensi yezokuhlalisana kwabantu, kanye nesayensi yemvelo njengesayensi yemvelo. I-social ecology isayensi ye-interdisciplinary. Isazi sezokuhlalisana kwabantu asisebenzi nje kuphela ngezazi zemvelo ngesinye isikhathi, kodwa kuzanywa ukubhekana nezindaba ngendlela ehlangene ngempela, izindaba ezidinga ngempela ukusebenzisana, ukuqondana okufanayo kweziyalo zomunye nomunye.

Ngiyisazi senhlalo yabantu ngokuqeqeshwa, ngisebenze kakhulu nesayensi yezepolitiki, kodwa manje lapha esikhungweni ngisebenza kakhulu nozakwethu besayensi. Lokho kusho ukuthi sifundisa ndawonye, ​​siqeqesha abafundi bethu ngendlela ehlukene. Hhayi-ke, akuyena owenza isayensi yemvelo bese kufanele bafunde kancane isayensi yezokuhlalisana kwabantu ngesemester, sikwenza ndawonye, ​​ekufundiseni ngokubambisana, nososayensi wemvelo kanye nososayensi wezenhlalo.

Imvelo nomphakathi kuyasebenzisana

UMartin Auer: Futhi awuboni imvelo nomphakathi njengezindawo ezimbili ezihlukene, kodwa njengezindawo ezihlala zisebenzelana.

UChristoph Goerg: Impela. Sibhekana nokusebenzisana, nokusebenzelana phakathi kwalezi zindawo ezimbili. I-thesis eyisisekelo ukuthi awukwazi ukuqonda eyodwa ngaphandle komunye. Asikwazi ukuqonda imvelo ngaphandle komphakathi, ngoba namuhla imvelo ithonywe ngokuphelele ngabantu. Akanyamalala, kodwa useshintshile, washintshwa. Zonke izimiso zemvelo zethu ziyizindawo zamasiko ezibuyekezwe ngokusetshenziswa. Sishintshile isimo sezulu somhlaba futhi ngaleyo ndlela sibe nomthelela ekuthuthukisweni kweplanethi. Ayisekho imvelo engakathintwa. Futhi awukho umphakathi ngaphandle kwemvelo. Lokhu kuvame ukukhohlakala kwisayensi yezenhlalo. Sincike ekuthatheni izinto ezivela emvelweni - amandla, ukudla, ukuvikelwa esimweni sezulu esibi, emakhazeni nasekushiseni nokunye, ngakho sincike ekusebenzelaneni nemvelo ngezindlela eziningi.

i-social metabolism

UMartin Auer: Nali igama elingukhiye: "social metabolism".

UChristoph Goerg: Impela engikubalule "i-social metabolism".

UMartin Auer: Ngakho njengesilwane noma isitshalo: yini engena, yini edliwayo, iguqulwa kanjani ibe amandla nezicubu futhi yini ephuma futhi ekugcineni - futhi lokhu manje kudluliselwa emphakathini.

UChristoph Goerg: Yebo, siphinde sihlole lokho ngobuningi, okudliwayo nokuthi kanjani futhi yini ephuma ekugcineni, okungukuthi yikuphi udoti osele. Sihlola indwangu, kodwa umehluko ukuthi umphakathi uye washintsha isisekelo sendwangu ngokuphawulekayo kuwo wonke umlando. Njengamanje sisesimweni se-industrial metabolism esekelwe kuphethiloli. Amafutha ezinsalela anesisekelo samandla ezinye izinto ezingenakho, ngakho-ke isibonelo i-biomass ayinayo i-entropy efanayo. Sisebenzise ithuba le-industrial metabolism -- ngokuxhashazwa kwamalahle, uwoyela, igesi nokunye -- eminye imiphakathi ebingenakho ngaphambili, futhi sidale ingcebo emangalisayo. Kubalulekile ukukubona lokho. Sakhe ingcebo yezinto ezibonakalayo emangalisayo. Uma sibuyela emuva esizukulwaneni, kulula kakhulu ukukuqonda. Kepha sidale inkinga enkulu ngayo - impela ngenzuzo esiyizuzile ekusebenziseni imvelo - okuyizinkinga zesimo sezulu kanye nenkinga yezinhlobonhlobo zezinto eziphilayo kanye nezinye izinkinga. Futhi kufanele ukubone lokhu kumongo, ekuxhumaneni. Ngakho-ke lokhu kuwumkhiqizo walokhu kusetshenziswa kwezinsiza, futhi kufanele sikuthathele phezulu ukuncika kwemiphakathi yabantu kulezi zinsiza. Leyo yinkinga enkulu esibhekene nayo namuhla: Singawushintsha kanjani umzimba wezimboni. Lokho kuyisihluthulelo sethu.

Okunikezwayo kokuqamba okusha akwanele

UMartin Auer: Manje isingeniso sithi - ngokwezigaba - ukuthi ukunikezwa okusha kwangaphambilini njengokukhula okuluhlaza, ukuhamba kwe-e, umnotho oyindilinga kanye nokusetshenziswa kwe-biomass ukukhiqiza amandla akwanele ukwakha izakhiwo ezivumelana nesimo sezulu. Ungakuthethelela kanjani lokho?

UChristoph Goerg: Ngokusebenzisa amandla ezinto ezimbiwa phansi, sidale ithuba lokuthuthukisa umphakathi esingeke sikwazi ukuqhubeka sisezingeni elifanayo. Hhayi nangokusetshenziswa kwe-biomass nobunye ubuchwepheshe. Nokho, kuze kube manje abukho ubufakazi bokuthi singakwenza lokhu. Kudingeka silule usilingi ngoba siyabona ukuthi uma siqhubeka nokusebenzisa amafutha, sizodala inkinga yesimo sezulu. Futhi uma singafuni ukuyisebenzisa, thina njengemiphakathi kufanele sicabangele ukuthi kungakanani ukuchuma esisengakwazi ukukukhokhela esikhathini esizayo? Esikwenzayo njengamanje: Sihlanganisa ikusasa. Namuhla sisebenzisa ukuchuma okukhulu okungenzeka silahlekelwe yizizukulwane ezizayo. Lokho ngikubiza ngokuthi yikoloni. Ngamanye amazwi, amathuba abo ancipha kakhulu ngoba namuhla siphila ngaphezu kwamandla ethu. Futhi kufanele sehlele lapho. Lokhu empeleni kuyinkinga eyinhloko ebhekwa yi-thesis ye-Anthropocene. Akubizwa kanjalo. I-Anthropocene ithi yebo, sinenkathi yomuntu namuhla, inkathi ye-geological eye yalolongwa ngabantu. Yebo, lokho kusho ukuthi emakhulwini eminyaka ezayo, izinkulungwane zeminyaka, siyohlushwa imithwalo yaphakade esiyikhiqizayo namuhla. Ngakho hhayi thina, kodwa izizukulwane ezizayo. Sikhawulela izinketho zabo kakhulu. Futhi yingakho kufanele siguqule ukwenza kwethu amakholoni ngesikhathi, ukwenziwa kwamakoloni kwethu kwekusasa. Lena inselelo eyinhloko yenkinga yesimo sezulu esikhona manje. Lokhu manje kudlula uMbiko wethu Okhethekile - ngithanda ukugcizelela lokhu - lona umbono wami njengoprofesa wesayensi yezenhlalo. Ngeke ukuthole ukuthi embikweni, akuwona umbono odidiyelwe, yisiphetho engifinyelela kuso embikweni njengososayensi.

UMartin Auer: Ngombiko, asinayo incwadi yeresiphi yokuthi kufanele siklame kanjani izakhiwo, isifinyezo semibono eyahlukene.

Asikwazi ukuphila ngokuqhubekayo njengabantu ngabanye

UChristoph Goerg: Leli iphuzu elibaluleke kakhulu: Sinqume ngokusobala ukushiya imibono ehlukene njengoba injalo. Sinemibono emine: umbono wemakethe, umbono wokuqamba izinto ezintsha, umbono wokuthunyelwa kanye nombono womphakathi. Engxoxweni mayelana nokushintsha kwesimo sezulu, umbono wemakethe kuphela ovame ukuthathwa, okungukuthi, singashintsha kanjani izinqumo zabathengi ngokusebenzisa amasignali entengo. Futhi kulapho umbiko wethu usho khona ngokucacile: Ngalo mbono, abantu ngabanye bakhungathekile. Ngeke sisakwazi ukuphila ngokuqhubekayo njengabantu ngabanye, noma kuphela ngomzamo omkhulu, ngokuzidela okukhulu. Futhi inhloso yethu ukuthi kufanele sithole izinqumo zomthengi zomuntu ngamunye ngalo mbono. Kufanele sibheke izakhiwo. Yingakho sengeze eminye imibono, njengombono wokuqamba izinto ezintsha. Kukhona kaningi. Kumayelana nokuthuthukiswa kobuchwepheshe obusha, kodwa futhi kufanele busekelwe yizimo zohlaka, lokho akwenzeki ngokwako, njengoba ngezinye izikhathi kwenziwa. Amasu amasha nawo kufanele aklanywe. Kodwa futhi kufanele ubheke ngale kobuchwepheshe obubodwa, kufanele ufake umongo wokusebenzisa wobuchwepheshe. Kuyaye kuthiwe uma ungafuni ukukhuluma ngobuchwepheshe kufanele uvale umlomo. Cha, sidinga ukukhuluma ngobuchwepheshe, kodwa futhi mayelana nokusetshenziswa kobuchwepheshe kanye nemiphumela emibi yobuchwepheshe. Uma sikholelwa ukuthi injini kagesi izoxazulula inkinga emkhakheni wezokuthutha, khona-ke sisendleleni engalungile. Inkinga yethrafikhi inkulu kakhulu, kukhona ukugcwala kwamadolobha, kukhona ukukhiqizwa okuphelele kwama-motor kagesi nezinye izingxenye kanye nokusetshenziswa kukagesi. Kufanele ukubone lokho kumongo. Futhi lokho akunakwa ezicini ngazinye zokusungula izinto ezintsha. Kungakho sinqume ukuhambisana nombono wemakethe kanye nombono wokuqamba kabusha ngombono wokulethwa, isibonelo ukulethwa kwezithuthi zomphakathi, noma ukulethwa kwezakhiwo ezivumela ngempela ukuphila okuvumelana nesimo sezulu. Uma lokhu kunganikezwanga, ngakho-ke ngeke sikwazi ukuphila ngokuvumelana nesimo sezulu. Futhi ekugcineni umbono womphakathi, lokhu yilokhu kusebenzisana okugcwele phakathi komphakathi nemvelo.

Ingabe ubunxiwankulu bungakwazi ukusimama?

UMartin Auer: Manje, nokho, lesi sahluko sithi - futhi ngokusobala impela - ukuthi ubunxiwankulu bomhlaba wonke abumele indlela esimeme yokukhiqiza nokuphila ngoba buncike ezintweni ezimbiwa phansi, okungukuthi ezinomkhawulo, izinsiza. Ingabe i-capitalism esekelwe emandleni avuselelekayo kanye nomnotho oyindilinga awunakucatshangwa nhlobo? Sisho ukuthini ngempela ngonxiwankulu, bubonakala bunjani? Ukukhiqizwa kwempahla, umnotho wemakethe, ukuncintisana, ukuqongelela imali, amandla abasebenzi njengempahla?

UChristoph Goerg: Ngaphezu kwakho konke, ukukhiqizwa kwemali eningi ngokusetshenziswa kwezimali. Lokho kusho ukwenza inzuzo. Futhi tshala inzuzo, isebenzise, ​​kanye nokukhula okuwumphumela.

UMartin Auer: Ngakho awukhiqizi ikakhulukazi ukuze wanelise izidingo ezithile, kodwa ukuthengisa futhi ubuyisele inzuzo ibe yimali.

UChristoph Goerg: Impela. Inhloso enkulu wukuthengisa ukuze wenze inzuzo futhi uyitshale kabusha, wenze imali eyengeziwe. Yileyo nhloso, hhayi inzuzo. Futhi lowo kungaba umbuzo omkhulu: Kufanele sifinyelele kumbono wokwanela, futhi ukwanela kusho ngokuyisisekelo: Yini esiyidingayo ngempela? Futhi yini esisengakwazi ukuyikhokhela esikhathini esizayo uma sibheka isimo sezulu esibucayi kanye nezizukulwane ezizayo? Lowo ngumbuzo obalulekile. Futhi ukuthi lokho kungenzeka yini ngaphansi kobunxiwankulu kuwumbuzo wesibili. Kufanele ukubone lokho. Kodwa kunoma yikuphi, kufanele - kufanele siphume kulokhu kubusa kokwenza inzuzo ngenxa yenzuzo. Futhi yingakho kufanele siphume embonweni wokukhula. Kukhona ozakwabo abakholwa wukuthi le nkinga yesimo sezulu ingaqedwa ngokukhula. Ozakwethu bakuphenyile lokhu base bebheka wonke amaphepha atholakalayo ngalesi sihloko futhi babheka ukuthi abukho yini ubufakazi bokuthi singaqeda ukuchuma kwethu ngezinto ezibonakalayo ekusetshenzisweni kwezinsiza kanye nomthelela wesimo sezulu. Futhi abukho ubufakazi besayensi balokho. Nokwehlukanisa kwangempela. Kwakukhona izigaba, kodwa kwakuyizigaba zokuwohloka komnotho, okungukuthi isimo esibucayi somnotho. Futhi kwakukhona ukuhlukana phakathi phakathi, ngakho-ke saba nengcebo yezinto ezibonakalayo ethe xaxa kunemiphumela engemihle. Kodwa kufanele sisondele enkolelweni yokukhula kanye nokuphoqeleka ukuthi sikhule. Kufanele sidlulele emnothweni ongasakholelwa ekukhuleni okungapheli.

Ingabe Ukukhula Kuyindaba Yokholo?

UMartin Auer: Kodwa ingabe ukukhula manje kuwumbuzo nje wemibono, inkolelo, noma nje yakhelwe ohlelweni lwethu lwezomnotho?

UChristoph Goerg: Kubili. Yakhelwe ohlelweni lwethu lwezomnotho. Nokho, ingase ishintshwe. Uhlelo lwezomnotho luyashintsha. Singakwazi futhi ukunqoba izithiyo zesakhiwo. Futhi yilapho inkolelo iqala khona ukusebenza. Njengamanje uma ubheka ezinkundleni zepolitiki ngeke uthole nelilodwa iqembu elingenela ukhetho elingagxilile ekukhuliseni umnotho. Wonke umuntu ukholelwa ukuthi ukukhula komnotho kuyisixazululo sazo zonke izinkinga zethu, ikakhulukazi izinkinga zethu zezenhlalo nezomnotho. Futhi ukwenza lokho, kufanele sivule isikhala ukuze sikwazi ukubhekana nokuxazulula izinkinga ngaphandle kombono wokukhula. Ozakwethu lokhu bakubiza ngokuwohloka. Ngeke sisakholelwa, njengoba kwakunjalo ngeminyaka yawo-70 no-80, ukuthi zonke izinkinga zethu zizoxazululwa ngokukhula komnotho. Kufanele sithole ezinye izixazululo, isixazululo sokuklama esizama ukushintsha izakhiwo.

Ukuzibekela imingcele komphakathi

UMartin Auer: "Ukuzibekela imingcele komphakathi" igama elingukhiye lapha. Kodwa kungenzeka kanjani lokhu? Ngeziqondiso ezivela phezulu noma ngezinqubo zentando yeningi?

UChristoph Goerg: Kungenziwa kuphela ngentando yeningi. Kumele iphoqelelwe umphakathi wentando yeningi, bese isekelwa umbuso. Kodwa akumele kuze njengomthetho ovela phezulu. Ubani okufanele abe negunya lokwenza lokhu, ubani okufanele asho kahle ukuthi yini esengenzeka futhi yini engasakwazi? Lokho kungenziwa kuphela ngenqubo yokuvota yentando yeningi, futhi lokho kudinga uhlobo oluhlukile locwaningo lwesayensi. Ngisho nesayensi akumele isho, futhi ayikwazi ukusho. Kungakho sengezelele uMbiko wethu Okhethekile ngohlelo lwababambiqhaza olubandakanya ababambiqhaza abavela ezindaweni ezehlukene zomphakathi: Ngokwaleli phuzu, ungabukeka kanjani umphakathi owenza impilo enhle futhi evumelana nesimo sezulu? Futhi asizange nje sibuze ososayensi, kodwa abameleli bamaqembu ahlukahlukene anentshisekelo. Lowo ngumsebenzi wentando yeningi. Ingasekelwa isayensi, kodwa idinga ukuchazwa endaweni yomphakathi.

UMartin Auer: Uma ungakwazi ukukunciphisa lokho manje, ungathi: Lezi yizidingo ezibalulekile ngempela, lezi yizinto ezinhle uma unazo, futhi lokho kuwukunethezeka esingenakukwazi ukukukhokhela. Ungakwazi yini ukuphikisa lokho?

UChristoph Goerg: Asikwazi ukukuphikisa ngokuphelele lokhu. Kodwa-ke singabutha ubufakazi. Isibonelo, izindaba zokungalingani kwezomnotho zinemithelela emikhulu ekukhiqizweni kwesisi esibamba ukushisa. Lokho kuyisici esisodwa esikhulu sokuthi unemali eningi yini. Imali eningi ihlotshaniswa nokusetshenziswa okunethezeka. Futhi zikhona ngempela izindawo ongaziyeka zibe ngaphandle kokuzidela. Ingabe kufanele ngempela undize uye eParis ukuze uyothenga ngempelasonto? Ingabe kufanele undize amakhilomitha amaningi kangaka ngonyaka? Ngokwesibonelo, ngihlala eBonn futhi ngisebenza eVienna. Ngayeka ukundiza noma kunjalo. Ngiqaphele ukuthi uyashesha e-Vienna noma e-Bonn, kodwa empeleni ucindezelekile. Uma ngihamba ngesitimela, kungcono kimi. Empeleni angihambi ngaphandle uma ngingandizeli lapho. Ngishintshe isabelomali sami sesikhathi. Ngisebenza esitimeleni ngifike ngizipholele eVienna noma ekhaya, anginaso istress sokundiza, angichithi isikhathi eside esangweni nokunye. Lokhu ngokuyisisekelo kuyinzuzo yezinga lempilo.

UMartin Auer: Okungukuthi, umuntu angabona izidingo ezinganeliswa ngezindlela ezahlukene, ngezimpahla noma amasevisi ahlukene.

UChristoph Goerg: Impela. Futhi sizamile ukubhekana nalokho ohlelweni lwababambe iqhaza. Sazethula ezinhlotsheni ezinjengalezi, izinhlobo zasemaphandleni noma abantu abahlala edolobheni, futhi sabuza: Izimpilo zabo zingashintsha kanjani, kungaba kanjani ukuphila okuhle, kodwa kunokungcoliswa kwesimo sezulu kuncane. Futhi kufanele usebenzise umcabango omncane. Lokhu futhi kuncike kakhulu ekwakhiweni kwezimo zokusebenza, futhi kanjalo nasekwakhiweni kwesabelomali sesikhathi sokungcebeleka. Futhi nomsebenzi wokunakekela onawo nezingane nokunye, i.e. ukuthi zakhiwe kanjani, isiphi ingcindezi onayo ngakho, noma ngabe kufanele uhambe uye emuva kakhulu, unezinketho eziningi ezikhululekile nezivumelana nezimo zesimo sezulu esiphilayo. -nobungane. Uma unezimo zomsebenzi ezicindezelayo, bese usebenzisa i-CO2 eyengeziwe, ukuyibeka kalula. Ngakho sikwenza ngempela ngezabelomali zesikhathi. Kuyajabulisa kakhulu ukubona ukuthi izakhiwo zokusetshenziswa kwesikhathi zidlala indima enkulu ekukhiqizweni kwe-CO2 yethu.

UMartin Auer: Ngakho ungasho ukuthi ukuncishiswa okujwayelekile kwamahora okusebenza kungenza kube lula kubantu?

UChristoph Goerg: Noma kunjalo! Ukuvumelana nezimo okwengeziwe kungenza kube lula kubo. Akudingeki uhambise izingane zakho esikoleni ngemoto, ungaphinde ugibele ibhayisikili eduze kwayo ngoba unesikhathi esiningi. Yiqiniso, uma usebenzisa ukuguquguquka ukuze uye eholidini kakhudlwana, kusho ukuthi kuyabuyisela emuva. Kodwa siyaqiniseka - futhi sibona nobufakazi balokhu - ukuthi isabelomali se-CO2 singabuye sincishiswe ngokuguquguquka okwengeziwe.

yimalini eyanele

UMartin Auer: Ungakwenza kanjani ukwanela, noma isidingo sokwanela, sibe nengqondo kangangokuthi abantu abakwesabi?

UChristoph Goerg: Awufuni ukubaphuca noma yini. Kufanele uphile impilo emnandi. Kungakho ngigcizelela ukuthi ukuchuma, impilo emnandi, kumele kube yinto esemqoka. Kodwa yini engiyidingayo ukuze ngibe nempilo enhle? Ingabe ngidinga i-e-mobile egaraji ngaphezu kwezinjini zami ezimbili zikaphethiloli? Ingabe lokho kuyangizuzisa? Ingabe ngiyazuza ngempela kulokhu, noma nginethoyizi nje? Noma kuwudumo kimina? Ukusetshenziswa okuningi kuwudumo. Ngifuna ukukhombisa ukuthi ngingakwazi ukukhokhela uhambo lwangempelasonto oluya eLondon. Lokhu kuhlonishwa akulula ukuyeka, kodwa kungase kube nenkulumo yeningi ngakho: Yiziphi izinto engizifunela ukuphila okujabulisayo ngempela? Futhi sibuze ozakwethu bokuphrakthiza lo mbuzo. Hhayi ukuthi kufanele siqinise kanjani amabhande ethu, kodwa yini esiyidingayo ngempela ukuze sibe nempilo enhle. Futhi ngalokho sidinga ukuvikeleka komphakathi okwengeziwe nokuvumelana nezimo.

UMartin Auer: Manje iphinde ithi ukuguqulwa kwezakhiwo ezihambisana nesimo sezulu kuhlotshaniswa nokungqubuzana okukhulu kwentshisekelo kanye nencazelo, futhi kufanele kube umsebenzi we-ecology yezombangazwe ukuqonda lezi zingxabano futhi ubonise izindlela zokuzinqoba.

UChristoph Goerg: Yebo, impela. Kukhona negama lesibili, i-ecology yezepolitiki. Ihlobene eduze ne-social ecology. Futhi kunezikole ezahlukene, kodwa ngokomthetho zonke izikole ziyavuma ukuthi lokhu kuhilela ukungqubuzana ngoba siphila emphakathini lapho izithakazelo ziphikisana kakhulu. Isibonelo, kunemisebenzi encike emkhakheni wezimoto. Kufanele ukuthathele phezulu lokho, vele abantu akufanele balahlwe ezitaladini. Kufanele uthuthukise amasu oguquko. Sisuka kanjani emnothweni ogxile ezimotweni siye kongasenawo lowo mkhawulo. Ungakuguqula lokho. Kukhona futhi amaphrojekthi lapho amandla amaningi obuchopho afakwa embuzweni wokuthi ungafinyelela kanjani ukuguqulwa. Futhi ku-ecology yezombangazwe amaphrojekthi anjalo okuguqula angaklanywa.

Uma sibheka eJalimane: Kungenzeka, isibonelo, ukwenza ngaphandle kwe-lignite. Kwakukhona abambalwa ababesebenza ku-lignite, futhi ngemva kuka-1989 abazange bacasulwe ukuthi i-lignite yawa kancane. Yayiyimbi indawo ezungezile, yayingcolisa kangangokuthi, nakuba balahlekelwa umsebenzi, bathi: ukuphila kumane nje kuncono. Ungenza okufanayo kwenye indawo uma unganikeza abantu ikusasa elifanelekayo. Yebo, kufanele ubanikeze imibono, futhi kufanele bayithuthukise ndawonye. Lona umsebenzi ongeke wenziwe wodwa.

Uyini umsebenzi owusizo emphakathini?

UMartin Auer: Bengibheka nje isibonelo somlando, i Uhlelo lukaLucas. Abasebenzi, abasebenzi basehholo lefekthri, bakha ezinye izindlela kanye nabaklami futhi, ukuze kuvinjelwe ukudilizwa, bafuna “ilungelo lomsebenzi owusizo emphakathini”.

UChristoph Goerg: Lesi isibonelo esihle kakhulu. Leyo kwakuyimboni yezikhali, futhi izisebenzi zabuza: ingabe kufanele senze izikhali? Noma kufanele senze izinto eziwusizo emphakathini. Futhi bazihlela bona. Lokhu kwakuwuhlelo lokuguqulwa, kusuka efekthri yezikhali kuya efekthri okungezona ezezikhali. Futhi abaningi baye bazama ukufunda kukho. Ungathatha lokhu namuhla, isibonelo, ukuguqula imboni yezimoto, okungukuthi ukuyiguqulela kwenye imboni. Kumele iklanywe, kungabi yi-shock therapy, izinkampani akufanele zife. Kufanele ukwenze ngendlela ethatha ukwesaba komphakathi ngokungathi sína futhi usebenzelana nakho ngokuvimbela. Senze amaphrojekthi lapha nezinyunyana. Izinyunyana zabasebenzi embonini yokuhlinzeka ngezimoto e-Austria zingangeniswa kanjani njengabalingisi boguquko? Ukuze bangabi abaphikisi kodwa abasekeli boguquko uma lwenziwa ngendlela efanele emphakathini.

UMartin Auer: Abantu bakwaLucas bakhombisa ukuthi: Singabantu abenza izinto. Laba bantu empeleni banamandla okuthi: Asifuni ukwenza lokho. Abantu esuphamakethe empeleni babe namandla okuthi: Asifaki noma yimiphi imikhiqizo enamafutha esundu emashalofini, asikwenzi lokho. Noma: Asiwakhi amaSUV, asikwenzi lokho.

UChristoph Goerg: Wenza isicelo soguquko sokuthi abasebenzi babe nokusho okwengeziwe, hhayi nje kuphela ngamahora okusebenza kodwa nangemikhiqizo. Lona umbuzo osematheni, ikakhulukazi emkhakheni wezinsizakalo namuhla - ake ngikhulume ngeCorona - ukuthi abasebenzi abasemnothweni wokunakekelwa banamathuba engeziwe okusebenzelana endaweni yabo. Sifunde ukuthi kusho ukuthini ukucindezelwa wubhubhane lwe-corona kubasebenzi. Futhi ukudala amathuba okuba basize ekulolongeni indawo yabo yokusebenza kuyisidingo sehora.

Ukubuza amandla nokubusa

UMartin Auer: Lokhu kusiletha esiphethweni salesi sahluko, esithi izinhlangano zomphakathi eziphazamisa amandla akhona kanye nezinhlaka zokubusa zenza izakhiwo ezivumelana nesimo sezulu zibe lula.

UChristoph Goerg: Yebo, leyo thesis eqondile ngempela. Kodwa ngiyaqiniseka ukuthi uqinisile. Nginesiqiniseko sokuthi izinkinga ezikhona kanye nezinkinga ezingemuva kwazo zihlobene nokubusa. Abanye abalingisi, isibonelo, labo abalawula amafutha ezinto ezimbiwa phansi, banamandla esakhiwo futhi ngaleyo ndlela baphethe imikhakha ethile, futhi la mandla kufanele aphulwe. Ikakhulukazi endaweni lapho igama elithi "amaphekula esimo sezulu" linengqondo ngempela, okungukuthi endabeni yezinkampani ezinkulu zamandla ezinto ezimbiwa phansi, okungukuthi i-Exxon Mobile njll., babengamaphekula esimo sezulu ngempela ngoba, nakuba babekwazi ababekwenza, babelokhu behamba. futhi bazama ukuvimba ulwazi mayelana nenkinga yesimo sezulu futhi manje sebezama ukwenza ibhizinisi nayo. Futhi lobu budlelwano bamandla kufanele buqedwe. Ngeke ukwazi ukuziqeda ngokuphelele, kodwa kufanele uzuze ukuthi amathuba okubumba umphakathi avuleke kakhulu. Bakwazile ukuqinisekisa ukuthi igama elithi “fossil energy” alifakiwe kunoma yiziphi izivumelwano ze-Framework Convention on Climate Change. Isizathu sangempela asishiwongo. Futhi leyo yindaba yamandla, yokubusa. Futhi kufanele sikuphule lokho. Kufanele sikhulume ngezimbangela futhi kufanele sibuze ngaphandle kokuvinjelwa kokucabanga, singayiguqula kanjani.

UMartin Auer: Ngicabanga ukuthi lokho singakushiya njengezwi lokugcina manje. Ngiyabonga kakhulu ngale ngxoxo!

Isithombe sekhava: I-Jharia Coal Mine India. Isithombe: I-TripodStories nge Wikipedia, CC BY-SA 4.0